| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| JustaServant |
Posted - 04/30/2009 : 12:34:22 PM
Catholics agree with Protestants that Scripture is a "standard of truth", but not in a sense that it rules out the authority of Tradition and the Church. No biblical passage teaches that Scripture is the authority or rule of faith in isolation.
More importantly, there is no unity in Scripture Alone. If there were, there wouldn't be over 33,000 different denominations of Protestants around the world. Sola Scriptura falls apart everytime one opens the phone book and counts the number of churches in any given area.
For me, one of the shaky bricks in Scripture Alone came from a Baptist preacher years ago who told me of his troubles in a small town church.
The church was divided. One part of the church wanted things their way, the other side violently disagreed. This got to a point where the different factions would sit themselves on opposite sides of the church trading irritated glances and whispers among themselves. The pastor was in the middle, any sermon he preached would be seen as favoring one side over the other. So he came upon a wonderful idea:
Just read the Scriptures without comment and let God sort it out.
He chose, for better or worse the Book of Psalms.
"Blessed is the man that walketh not in the counsel of the ungodly, nor standeth in the way of sinners, nor sitteth in the seat of the scornful" generated shocked looks that told this poor preacher that it was not being taken as David perhaps wrote it.
"Why do the heathen rage, and the people imagine a vain thing?" At this point there was murmuring in the pews. "Lord, how are they increased that trouble me! many are they that rise up against me." The congregation, on both sides, were in a rage. One lady walked out. "O ye sons of men, how long will ye turn my glory into shame? how long will ye love vanity...?" Two more walked out and the head deacon interupted. The service was stopped and the preacher was forced to resign on the spot.
It wasn't the Scriptures, it was the WAY he read them. He OBVIOUSLY meant it for thier little group.
In that brief, unshining moment, that preacher learned something about "Scripture alone".
It doesn't exist.
No person has any guarantee of discerning those proper teachings in scripture, when read outside of the light of the Church. Every Protestant knows other "bible-believers" get the wrong teachings out of scripture, sometimes to the point of not even being considered Christians. They just seem to have a hard time taking the next step, which is to acknowledge that they themselves may also get the wrong teachings out of scripture. |
| 35 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| MonFrere |
Posted - 05/13/2009 : 1:10:37 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Ralph
Believing that I am receiving Christ every time I take the Eucharist can’t compare to the belief that I have that I have Christ or shall I say that He has me, because of my belief, faith, acceptance of what He did for me by dying on the cross.
quote:
(John 6:53-56) Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you. Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day. For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed. He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him.
Ralph,
You are equating your "belief" to our "belief". On the issue of the Eucharist our "belief" is that we are receiving something SUBSTANTIAL. Your belief, as you state it, is when you get down to it nothing more than a "feeling" or to put it crassly "a warm fuzzy".
You are saying that our belief (which is a belief if a substantial reality) is less than your belief - which is simply an emotional consolation you receive from knowing that Jesus died for us. And believe me, Catholics receive every bit as much emotional consolation as you do IN ADDITION to our partaking of the body and blood of Christ -- as all Catholics sing on Holy Thursday - Our blessing cup is a communion in the blood of Christ. Get your religion out of the vicarious; Christ offers us His Reality!
To put it another way - you get all excited in reading a cookbook with delicious recipes but Catholics get excited about "eating and drinking the meal itself" ---- BIG BIG DIFFERENCE.
MonFrere
If a thing is worth doing, it is worth doing badly. G.K. Chesterton
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| artsippo |
Posted - 05/13/2009 : 12:42:50 PM
The problem we have with Ralph's comments, Rob, stem from the problem that JESUS instituted the Eucharist for us and it was the ONLY THING he ever asked us to do in his memory. Not only that it was something he wanted us to do TOGETHER as family of faith.
Anyone who says he get more out of imagining his own belief than in partaking of te Lord's Supper n no Christian. he isn't even Biblical.
Now of course we believe that personal prayer and devotion is important. In fact, the Catholic Church has the Divine Office which is a program of prayer, Scripture readings, and Readings from the Fathers that goes on 24 hours a day 7 days a week. Professed religious take part in this in their monasteries and convents. Parish priests are obliged to do an abbreviated form of this in the Divine Office every day.
But the holy sacrifice of the Mass is the greatest of all prayers. in it we are taken up Heaven in the very presence of God, his angels and his saints of the eternal liturgy where Jesus Christ the Lamb of God offers himself ETERNALLY to the Father for the forgiveness of sins. Mere human prayer or personal study and contemplation cannot compare to this.
If you have not done so, please read the wonderful book by my friend Scott Hahn "The Lamb's Supper: The Mass as Heaven on Earth." After reading tis, you will never go the the Mass the same way again.
Art
Omnes semper - ad Jesum, per Mariam, cum Petro! |
| Patti |
Posted - 05/13/2009 : 11:11:14 AM
quote:
I am only emphasizing that there is not an either/or choice to be made here.
quote:
I'm not proposing any either/or in this situation, only pointing out that the either/or offered in Ralph's post in which he said he didn't need the Eucharist when he could have the Bible is unnecessary.
So was I. 
Yours in Christ,
Patti
Laudare, benedicere, praedicare. |
| rr1213 |
Posted - 05/13/2009 : 11:03:36 AM
I don't disagree. I am only emphasizing that there is not an either/or choice to be made here. Jesus Christ quoted the Scriptures all the time. It is clear that they were of extreme importance to Him. That being the case, the Scriptures are of extreme importance to us as well. Likewise, in the Last Supper and elsewhere, Jesus instructed us as to how we must worship Him and partake of Him in the consecrated bread and wine. A faithful Christian can neither ignore the Scriptures nor the Eucharist. |
| Patti |
Posted - 05/13/2009 : 10:20:50 AM
I do agree with that point, Rob. Contemplation of God's Holy Writ is very good for the soul. Pope Leo XIII especially encouraged Catholics to read and study the Bible, recommending a minimum of fifteen minutes a day.
Even some common Catholic devotions focus on the Scriptures. The Rosary, for example, was at first a contemplation of the themes of the Psalms, hence the number of Aves in a full rosary is 150 in the main part of the devotional prayer. The Liturgy of the Hours is filled with Psalms, Canticles and readings taken from the Bible.
My point was not to denigrate the value of solitary prayer, but to stress that Scripture itself has provided an instruction from Christ to remember Him in the breaking of the bread and the drinking of the cup. Ralph said he knew what the Eucharist was when he left the Church, but then later, said he didn't really know until after he'd left the Church due to poor catechism. He said that reading the Bible means more to him than the possibility of receiving the Eucharist. Yet nowhere in the New Testament does Christ tell us to read the Scriptures and find our own way to God. What He tells us is He will give us His flesh to eat and His blood to drink, and that as often as we do this, we recall the death of the Lord.
Why is recalling the death of the Lord so important? Because the Son's obedient death is the only thing we have of value to offer the Father. By ourselves, we have nothing to offer, but when we unite our offerings to Christ's, the Father is pleased.
Reading the Scriptures is fine in its proper place, but to place it above what Christ has mandated us to do for worshiping God seems incongruous and disobedient. Christ didn't stress the importance of reading the Scriptures; He did stress the importance of praying and offering worship to God, which is what Catholics do at every Mass.
Most people do not realize how much of the Mass is actually derived from the Scriptures, plus those who attend are exposed to a large number of Scripture readings in a three-year cycle. The Catholic Church and the Bible by Peter M. J. Stravinskas goes into detail about the sources for the parts of the Mass. It therefore seems unfitting to dismiss the Mass as inferior to Bible reading or not conducive to developing a closer relationship to Jesus Christ. I'm not proposing any either/or in this situation, only pointing out that the either/or offered in Ralph's post in which he said he didn't need the Eucharist when he could have the Bible is unnecessary. My point is that the Bible, if read and contemplated long enough, does reveal the manner that Christ instructed us to pray, what to offer (or rather, Whose obedient sacrificial act to offer) to the Father, and the importance of doing this in the manner given us by the Son through the Holy Spirit.
Yours in Christ,
Patti
Laudare, benedicere, praedicare. |
| rr1213 |
Posted - 05/13/2009 : 07:49:40 AM
quote:
[i]Originally posted by Patti[/i]Reading the Bible is good for study and to deepen one's faith, but we are called to the Sacred Banquet of the King. Worship isn't meant to be a lonely thing but a gathering together to sing and pray, not with manmade ideas of how God wants to be worshiped, but as God Himself in the Person of the Son instructed us to worship. Why stay in a reading room when invited to the table of the Lord?
Nor is there any reason not to do both. Partake of the Lord in the Holy Mass and "read, mark, learn and inwardly digest" (BCP) the Holy Scriptures as well. |
| Patti |
Posted - 05/13/2009 : 01:11:56 AM
quote:
Believing that I am receiving Christ every time I take the Eucharist can’t compare to the belief that I have that I have Christ or shall I say that He has me, because of my belief, faith, acceptance of what He did for me by dying on the cross. Reading His Word constantly reminds me of how much God loves me, loved me before I loved Him, forgave me before I knew I need to be forgiven and has a plan for me today and in the future. I am connected to Him on a daily bases and even more so when I gather with others who love him as I do and sings songs of praise and adoration and am comforted and convicted by His Word. And the connection I have to God when I serve Him by sharing my faith, giving a cup of water, visiting those in prison and any other thing I can do in His name. As I wait to live with Him forever. I don’t see how a life dedicated to God can compare to a moment of receiving Him in the Eucharist, which of course I don’t believe we do.
Jesus Christ said:
quote:
"I am the bread of life; whoever comes to me will never hunger, and whoever believes in me will never thirst. But I told you that although you have seen (me), you do not believe. Everything that the Father gives me will come to me, and I will not reject anyone who comes to me, because I came down from heaven not to do my own will but the will of the one who sent me. And this is the will of the one who sent me, that I should not lose anything of what he gave me, but that I should raise it (on) the last day. For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in him may have eternal life, and I shall raise him (on) the last day."
The Jews murmured about him because he said, "I am the bread that came down from heaven," and they said, "Is this not Jesus, the son of Joseph? Do we not know his father and mother? Then how can he say, 'I have come down from heaven'?"
Jesus answered and said to them, "Stop murmuring among yourselves. No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draw him, and I will raise him on the last day. It is written in the prophets: 'They shall all be taught by God.' Everyone who listens to my Father and learns from him comes to me. Not that anyone has seen the Father except the one who is from God; he has seen the Father.
Amen, amen, I say to you, whoever believes has eternal life. I am the bread of life. Your ancestors ate the manna in the desert, but they died; this is the bread that comes down from heaven so that one may eat it and not die. I am the living bread that came down from heaven; whoever eats this bread will live forever; and the bread that I will give is my flesh for the life of the world."
The Jews quarreled among themselves, saying, "How can this man give us (his) flesh to eat?"
Jesus said to them, "Amen, amen, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you do not have life within you. Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him on the last day. For my flesh is true food, and my blood is true drink. Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me and I in him. Just as the living Father sent me and I have life because of the Father, so also the one who feeds on me will have life because of me. This is the bread that came down from heaven. Unlike your ancestors who ate and still died, whoever eats this bread will live forever."
These things he said while teaching in the synagogue in Capernaum. Then many of his disciples who were listening said, "This saying is hard; who can accept it?"
Since Jesus knew that his disciples were murmuring about this, he said to them, "Does this shock you? What if you were to see the Son of Man ascending to where he was before? It is the spirit that gives life, while the flesh is of no avail. The words I have spoken to you are spirit and life. But there are some of you who do not believe." Jesus knew from the beginning the ones who would not believe and the one who would betray him. And he said, "For this reason I have told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by my Father."
As a result of this, many (of) his disciples returned to their former way of life and no longer accompanied him. Jesus then said to the Twelve, "Do you also want to leave?"
Simon Peter answered him, "Master, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life. We have come to believe and are convinced that you are the Holy One of God."
Our Lord said to the Twelve (and the priest still says virtually the same thing at Mass):
quote:
Then he took the bread, said the blessing, broke it, and gave it to them, saying, "This is my body, which will be given for you; do this in memory of me."
And likewise the cup after they had eaten, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in my blood, which will be shed for you."
And Paul wrote in 1 Corinthians(which is very similar to what is said by a priest consecrating the bread and wine at Mass):
quote:
For I received from the Lord what I also handed on to you, that the Lord Jesus, on the night he was handed over, took bread,
and, after he had given thanks, broke it and said, "This is my body that is for you. Do this in remembrance of me."
In the same way also the cup, after supper, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in my blood. Do this, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of me."
For as often as you eat this bread and drink the cup, you proclaim the death of the Lord until he comes.
The angel in Revelation said:
quote:
Then the angel said to me, "Write this: Blessed are those who have been called to the wedding feast of the Lamb." And he said to me, "These words are true; they come from God."
The Church still says:
quote:
O sacred banquet,
in which Christ is received,
the memory of His Passion is renewed,
the mind is filled with grace,
and a pledge of future glory is given to us.
V. Thou didst give them bread from heaven:
R. Containing in itself all sweetness.
O God, who under a wonderful Sacrament
hast left us a memorial of Thy Passion;
grant us, we beseech Thee,
so to reverence the sacred mysteries of Thy Body and Blood,
that we may ever feel within ourselves
the fruit of Thy Redemption:
Who livest and reignest for ever and ever.
Amen.
For as often as you eat this bread and drink the cup, you proclaim the death of the Lord until he comes.
Reading the Bible is good for study and to deepen one's faith, but we are called to the Sacred Banquet of the King. Worship isn't meant to be a lonely thing but a gathering together to sing and pray, not with manmade ideas of how God wants to be worshiped, but as God Himself in the Person of the Son instructed us to worship. Why stay in a reading room when invited to the table of the Lord?
Yours in Christ,
Patti
Laudare, benedicere, praedicare. |
| artsippo |
Posted - 05/12/2009 : 12:22:56 PM
The communal nature of salvation is central to the Biblical worldview. From the beginning it was not good that human beings should be alone. Eve was tempted to sin while she was by herself. Adam fell later on because he felt that he would be alone unless he did. Sin always starts in the heart that is cut off from the outside world. Empathy is actually one of the greatest deterrence to sin. That is why the Gospel speaks so much about loving God and loving our neighbor. It is easier to harm someone you do not know or care about.
The other great danger is narcissism especially when coupled with hedonism. Worrying to much about yourself and how you might maximize your own pleasure is an inherently atheistic pursuit. Religions that concentrate on PERSONAL faith, PERSONAL salvation, PERSONAL saviors, PERSONAL interpretation, and PERSONAL satisfaction are traps that ensnare the unwary and turn them into suiolators. In such religions, there are no uncomfortable truths. There is nothing that you you MUST believe that you don't want to believe. You only have to accept what makes sense to you and everything else is dispensable.
This type of false religion masquerades and "non-denominational." What it really is is Non-Christian. A veneer of Christianity propped up by Christian sounding words is a sham. It is no better than "Ethical Culture", Secular Humanism, or any number of other false religions that places each individual human at the center of her own spiritual world.
The Church is the visible body of those openly professing Christ to the world and submitting to the authority that Jesus himself established. Jesus said something about this which these "non-denominational" type ignore completely as they do the rest of the Bible:
Luke 10:16 "He who hears you hears me, and he who rejects you rejects me, and he who rejects me rejects him who sent me."
There has also been a charge made recently by an apostate that the Catholics on this board denigrate the Bible.
I rebuke this infidel most strongly in the name of Christ. The people on this board are very well versed in the Bible and I for one quote it often. If I may be frank, I quote it more than any of the sepbreth on this board. And none of my fellow Catholics here has ever said anything derogatory about the Bible.
What we have insisted on is that those outside the Church cannot rightly discern the word of God. That is not an attack on the Bible, but an attack on the apostates, heretics, and schismatics who abuse the Bible for their own nefarious ends. It is these enemies of the Catholic Church that need to be rebuked for distorting Scripture.
Art
Omnes semper - ad Jesum, per Mariam, cum Petro! |
| Patti |
Posted - 05/12/2009 : 10:17:07 AM
quote:
And, sometimes, people are even convinced.....
True, the Holy Spirit can sometimes make it past our clumsy human presentation skills!
Yours in Christ,
Patti
Laudare, benedicere, praedicare. |
| Jjane |
Posted - 05/12/2009 : 08:35:41 AM
I liked Art's post about all arriving together - see above. You don't go to heaven on roller skates, you don't go alone. There is no hurry ( well that is questionable ) but I like that we don't go alone, that it is a mistake. And Art you did a good job, and I would have edited you . |
| rr1213 |
Posted - 05/11/2009 : 10:31:03 PM
quote:
[i]Originally posted by Patti[/i]
[br]No, he said it just fine. Nobody needed to edit his stuff. 
I agree that there's cause for concern. Wording was the only issue, not truth that needs to be said. Just say it like Paul recommended in 1 Corinthians 13:
If I speak in human and angelic tongues but do not have love, I am a resounding gong or a clashing cymbal.
And if I have the gift of prophecy and comprehend all mysteries and all knowledge; if I have all faith so as to move mountains but do not have love, I am nothing.
If I give away everything I own, and if I hand my body over so that I may boast but do not have love, I gain nothing.
And, sometimes, people are even convinced..... |
| Patti |
Posted - 05/11/2009 : 10:10:05 PM
No, he said it just fine. Nobody needed to edit his stuff.
I agree that there's cause for concern. Wording was the only issue, not truth that needs to be said. Just say it like Paul recommended in 1 Corinthians 13:
If I speak in human and angelic tongues but do not have love, I am a resounding gong or a clashing cymbal.
And if I have the gift of prophecy and comprehend all mysteries and all knowledge; if I have all faith so as to move mountains but do not have love, I am nothing.
If I give away everything I own, and if I hand my body over so that I may boast but do not have love, I gain nothing.
Or as the little brown friar once said: Preach the Gospel at all times; use words if necessary.
We are on the same page, no disagreement as to the point being expressed; the only divergence is in how it's being expressed.
Yours in Christ,
Patti
Laudare, benedicere, praedicare. |
| artsippo |
Posted - 05/11/2009 : 10:00:23 PM
Patti, I fear his soul is already lost. I seem to remember this wise man who once said:
Mat 16:4 An evil and adulterous generation seeks for a sign, but no sign shall be given to it except the sign of Jonah." So he left them and departed.
Mat 18:8 And if your hand or your foot causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away; it is better for you to enter life maimed or lame than with two hands or two feet to be thrown into the eternal fire.
Mat 18:9 And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out and throw it away; it is better for you to enter life with one eye than with two eyes to be thrown into the hell of fire.
Mat 18:15 "If your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault, between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you have gained your brother.
Mat 18:16 But if he does not listen, take one or two others along with you, that every word may be confirmed by the evidence of two or three witnesses.
Mat 18:17 If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector.
Mat 23:13 "But woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because you shut the kingdom of heaven against men; for you neither enter yourselves, nor allow those who would enter to go in.
Mat 23:14 Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for you devour widows' houses and for a pretense you make long prayers; therefore you will receive the greater condemnation.
Mat 23:15 Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for you traverse sea and land to make a single proselyte, and when he becomes a proselyte, you make him twice as much a child of hell as yourselves.
Maybe he needed to tone it down, too?
:-)
Art
Omnes semper - ad Jesum, per Mariam, cum Petro! |
| Patti |
Posted - 05/11/2009 : 9:42:10 PM
Stand by what you say but just please don't use demeaning words. If you want to persuade someone that you have the truth, insulting him won't get him to believe it. Winning an argument shouldn't mean losing a soul.
Yours in Christ,
Patti
Laudare, benedicere, praedicare. |
| artsippo |
Posted - 05/11/2009 : 9:30:23 PM
Patti sez:
quote:
Art: Please, no more analogies like that last one. It was demeaning to Ralph as a human being.
Sorry, Patti, but I calls them likes I sees them. I stand behind what I wrote. No one can be truly human who is not in Jesus Christ and whoever mocks His Church or the sacrament of his body and blood given to us for our salvation and as our unifying family meal needs to be denounced openly and truthfully.
Ralph has loyalty to no one except himself. He wants to read the Bible THAT THE CATHOLIC CHURCH WROTE, COMPILED, CANONIZED, AND PROMULGATED all on his lonesome. He thinks there is no truth but Ralph's truth. No salvation but Ralph's salvation. No love but Ralph's love. Solitary religion is solitary sin. Read Revelation 21 and you can understadnd my conclusions.
Art
Omnes semper - ad Jesum, per Mariam, cum Petro! |
| Patti |
Posted - 05/11/2009 : 8:37:27 PM
Is God's "Word" limited to Scripture alone? Note section two below:
http://socrates58.blogspot.com/2006/11/quick-ten-step-refutation-of-sola.html
And Our Lord Jesus Christ is truly the most perfect Word God ever uttered.
Yours in Christ,
Patti
Laudare, benedicere, praedicare. |
| Jjane |
Posted - 05/11/2009 : 7:49:49 PM
quote:
[i]Originally posted by Ralph[/i]
[br]My religion is about following Christ Words, throught Christs Apostles, written down in Gods book we call the Bible. It is a shame you have such disrespect for Gods Word. You should hear how you all talk about Gods Word in this forum. Not meaning to I am sure but that is how it comes out all because you feel you need to protect your Church and by protecting your Church you show great disrespect for Gods WORD. It is not I who needs to REPENT
Ralph: I don't know what you mean by showing disrespect for God's Word.
And I too, follow Christ's words. John 16: 1 "I have said all this to you to keep you from falling away. " |
| Patti |
Posted - 05/11/2009 : 11:04:29 AM
Art: Please, no more analogies like that last one. It was demeaning to Ralph as a human being.
Ralph: I understand how upset you must have been, but charging every Catholic here with disrespecting God's Holy Writ requires evidence. Otherwise, you're libeling a whole lot of folks who have not been unkind to you and that is unjust.
Yours in Christ,
Patti
Laudare, benedicere, praedicare. |
| Ralph |
Posted - 05/11/2009 : 10:52:21 AM
My religion is about following Christ Words, throught Christs Apostles, written down in Gods book we call the Bible. It is a shame you have such disrespect for Gods Word. You should hear how you all talk about Gods Word in this forum. Not meaning to I am sure but that is how it comes out all because you feel you need to protect your Church and by protecting your Church you show great disrespect for Gods WORD. It is not I who needs to REPENT |
| artsippo |
Posted - 05/10/2009 : 3:34:15 PM
This is just too typical and sad!
Ralph opines:
quote:
Believing that I am receiving Christ every time I take the Eucharist can’t compare to the belief that I have that I have Christ or shall I say that He has me, because of my belief, faith, acceptance of what He did for me by dying on the cross.
Look at the real focus of Ralph's 'religion':
I have
I say
has me
My belief
{my} faith
{my} Acceptance
for me
This argument is not about God and His will for mankind. It is how Ralph has decided for himself what to believe and how to believe it.
When Jesus gave us the Eucharist he said:
Jhn 17:20 "I do not pray for these only, but also for those who believe in me through their word,
Jhn 17:21 that they may all be one; even as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be in us, so that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
Jhn 17:22 The glory which thou hast given me I have given to them, that they may be one even as we are one,
Jhn 17:23 I in them and thou in me, that they may become perfectly one, so that the world may know that thou hast sent me and hast loved them even as thou hast loved me.
Ralph, your religion is all about you, and not about Jesus or his Church.
A wonderful priest I knew, Fr. Pat Maher said it best:
quote:
You don't go to heaven on roller skates. You go on a bus. It is not a race. It is a family reunion and you go with the people you love. If you come by yourself, there will be no place for you there and you will be asked to leave.
Ralph - REPENT!
Art
Omnes semper - ad Jesum, per Mariam, cum Petro! |
| MonFrere |
Posted - 05/09/2009 : 2:55:08 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Ralph
I don’t see how a life dedicated to God can compare to a moment of receiving Him in the Eucharist, which of course I don’t believe we do.
Ralph,
From my seat it seems that you are making an either/or comparison. It's either a life dedicated to God OR a life of sacraments which I don't believe in; they were meaningless when you were Catholic and are meaningless to you now. But IT WAS YOU who made that dichotomy.
From my seat it seems that you were spiritually awakened while in the Catholic Church. With your newly awakened sense of spirituality you looked around you and found no one who shared your newly found enthusiasm. So, you went elsewhere because it was obvious to you that the Catholic Church didn't share your enthusiasm; therefore you are spiritually alive and they are spiritually dead.
I think this is a classic mistake that people make who go through a personal revival. People mistake enthusiasm for spiritual depth. The reason it is a mistake is because there is great vitality in the Catholic Church. There are oodles of Catholic periodicals - from National Catholic Register to Our Sunday Visitor. I know of several publications that are liturgically oriented to keep members on top of the DAILY liturgical celebrations. There are Catholic Publishing Houses that are constantly bringing before the membership the thought of current Catholic thought as well as the classics of our faith that never grow old. There are numerous devotions both old and new. There are also great Bible Studies. I'm presently reading a commentary on the Psalms done by Pope John Paul II -- his insights are AMAZING! (and much which would be fully accepted by Protestants BTW). 30% of all U.S. hospitals are Catholic. I think that's an incredible testimony of lay Catholics taking Jesus' words to bring care to the weak, poor and sick and doing something about it. There are always new institutions of higher education being created. And the charities organized by catholics are too numerous to count.
Presently, because of your choice to leave the Catholic Church you are going to humanly be selective in how you view the Church. But there is a dynamism there that for whatever reason you did not see.
Frankly, I think you jumped ship FAR TOO SOON. Everything that you are doing now for the Lord (which I think is fabulous) are being done by Catholics and probably being done with greater numbers and organization than what you are presently experiencing. PLUS - with a little honest study with that newly found enthusiasm given by the Holy Spirit (but human maturity isn't part of the package) you would see the ancient teaching of the Eucharist to be true and your access to grace would be increased 10 fold.
MonFrere
If a thing is worth doing, it is worth doing badly. G.K. Chesterton
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| Jjane |
Posted - 05/09/2009 : 1:28:26 PM
quote:
[i]Originally posted by rr1213[/i]
[br]quote:
[i]Originally posted by Ralph[/i]We should probably stop pretending that Catholics outside this circle are very aware of most of what the Catholic church teaches or has put much thougth into it.
Interesting assertion and there may be some truth to it. I am a new Catholic and still learning so I'm not sure that I really have enough experience in the faith to judge. However, I am active in our parish's men's ministry and I will say that I've seen some very, very knowledgeable guys there. I've also seen guys display some fundamental gaps in knowledge that surprised me. (Arguing for women's ordination particularly). I'm sure that it's a mix.
Well Ralph is out of the Church , so it may be harder for him to evalutate what is going on among its members.
But , there are always those who think ,  and then there are others... |
| Jjane |
Posted - 05/09/2009 : 1:22:55 PM
Ralph is saying: " Believing that I am receiving Christ every time I take the Eucharist can’t compare to the belief that I have that I have Christ or shall I say that He has me, because of my belief, faith, acceptance of what He did for me by dying on the cross. "
That is like saying that you can't have your potatoes because you want sirloin. God forgive the analogy.
What I am trying to say is that you can indeed have Christ in the Eucharist, fully divine, Incarnate , in the flesh. and you don't have to give up your Bible.
YOu have to receive the Sacrament worthily
And in our earlier exchange, I did not excuse the fact that those who many have gone to Catholic school and not understood did not bear responsibility.
IN other words, you can ask questions and educate yourself, just as you are doing.
YOu are right. He has you. and will not let you out of His sight. |
| Ralph |
Posted - 05/09/2009 : 12:08:38 PM
quote:
[i]Originally posted by Patti[/i]
[br]quote:
We should probably stop pretending that Catholics outside this circle are very aware of most of what the Catholic church teaches or has put much thougth into it.
I belong to a Dominican lay group that studies the Catechism and other writings of the Catholic Church on an ongoing basis. I also belonged to a ladies' group that studied various good Catholic books on the Mass and moral issues facing the Church today. There are study groups for all kinds of people in the Church, from Bible studies to Aquinas study for moms who meet in a park while their kids play. There is a lot more of this type of thing going on than non-Catholics realize.
quote:
I honestly don't know what I knew about the Eucharist or what it meant until my desire to know God better drew me away from the Catholic Church. That is after years of Catechism.
I sympathize completely. Our catechism was pretty abysmal, full of protest songs and lacking in basic education on such important things as the Eucharist. I had no idea that Christ was really present in the Eucharist until I was in college. That realization was stunning and made me feel cheated: Why wasn't I taught this when I was in Religious Education classes for First Communion? Then again, my parents didn't take us to Mass, never prayed at home or taught us to pray, and had no catechism material around from their generation, and were very careless about us receiving the sacraments; I wasn't baptized until I was eight years old. If I'd at least had access to a Baltimore Catechism, I'd have learned much more than I did. So, it wasn't just the Church's failure to communicate; I was raised in an environment that blighted faith, not nurtured it. I almost left the Church in high school when a Catholic friend who had gone Fundamentalist tried to proof-text me into it.
However, once my fiance told me and I realized that He was really there, nothing could ever make me leave Him. So, in essence, Ralph, you didn't really know He was there. You were not taught that truth. But even faith can flower in a wasteland if truth is sought and found.
Yours in Christ,
Patti
Laudare, benedicere, praedicare.
I am very, very, very aware of what the Catholic Church teaches about the Eucharist. After being out of the church for years and being in a non Catholic Church for years, I was motivated to look back at the Church of my youth. I own The New Catholic Catechism, Council of Trent, Keetings Catholics vs Fundamentalist and so on. I am well aware of the Catholic position. I am not tempted in the least to swim any rivers.
Believing that I am receiving Christ every time I take the Eucharist can’t compare to the belief that I have that I have Christ or shall I say that He has me, because of my belief, faith, acceptance of what He did for me by dying on the cross. Reading His Word constantly reminds me of how much God loves me, loved me before I loved Him, forgave me before I knew I need to be forgiven and has a plan for me today and in the future. I am connected to Him on a daily bases and even more so when I gather with others who love him as I do and sings songs of praise and adoration and am comforted and convicted by His Word. And the connection I have to God when I serve Him by sharing my faith, giving a cup of water, visiting those in prison and any other thing I can do in His name. As I wait to live with Him forever. I don’t see how a life dedicated to God can compare to a moment of receiving Him in the Eucharist, which of course I don’t believe we do.
Ralph
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| rr1213 |
Posted - 05/09/2009 : 11:57:07 AM
quote:
[i]Originally posted by Ralph[/i]We should probably stop pretending that Catholics outside this circle are very aware of most of what the Catholic church teaches or has put much thougth into it.
Interesting assertion and there may be some truth to it. I am a new Catholic and still learning so I'm not sure that I really have enough experience in the faith to judge. However, I am active in our parish's men's ministry and I will say that I've seen some very, very knowledgeable guys there. I've also seen guys display some fundamental gaps in knowledge that surprised me. (Arguing for women's ordination particularly). I'm sure that it's a mix. |
| Patti |
Posted - 05/09/2009 : 11:47:16 AM
quote:
We should probably stop pretending that Catholics outside this circle are very aware of most of what the Catholic church teaches or has put much thougth into it.
I belong to a Dominican lay group that studies the Catechism and other writings of the Catholic Church on an ongoing basis. I also belonged to a ladies' group that studied various good Catholic books on the Mass and moral issues facing the Church today. There are study groups for all kinds of people in the Church, from Bible studies to Aquinas study for moms who meet in a park while their kids play. There is a lot more of this type of thing going on than non-Catholics realize.
quote:
I honestly don't know what I knew about the Eucharist or what it meant until my desire to know God better drew me away from the Catholic Church. That is after years of Catechism.
I sympathize completely. Our catechism was pretty abysmal, full of protest songs and lacking in basic education on such important things as the Eucharist. I had no idea that Christ was really present in the Eucharist until I was in college. That realization was stunning and made me feel cheated: Why wasn't I taught this when I was in Religious Education classes for First Communion? Then again, my parents didn't take us to Mass, never prayed at home or taught us to pray, and had no catechism material around from their generation, and were very careless about us receiving the sacraments; I wasn't baptized until I was eight years old. If I'd at least had access to a Baltimore Catechism, I'd have learned much more than I did. So, it wasn't just the Church's failure to communicate; I was raised in an environment that blighted faith, not nurtured it. I almost left the Church in high school when a Catholic friend who had gone Fundamentalist tried to proof-text me into it.
However, once my fiance told me and I realized that He was really there, nothing could ever make me leave Him. So, in essence, Ralph, you didn't really know He was there. You were not taught that truth. But even faith can flower in a wasteland if truth is sought and found.
Yours in Christ,
Patti
Laudare, benedicere, praedicare. |
| Ralph |
Posted - 05/09/2009 : 11:36:18 AM
quote:
[i]Originally posted by Jjane[/i]
[br]HI Ralph:
YOu do have a valid point. LOts of people went through the Catholic system - and for one reason or other - and it may have been the teacher or what was taught . But they may not have ended up with their faith intact. But you know Ralph, that could be remedied.
RCIA at my Church is offered also to those who have been away from the Church, or just want a refresher.
Not too late.
And you do have a valid point.
Jjane Thanks for the offer but believe me it is way to late.
Ralph |
| Jjane |
Posted - 05/09/2009 : 11:29:05 AM
HI Ralph:
YOu do have a valid point. LOts of people went through the Catholic system - and for one reason or other - and it may have been the teacher or what was taught . But they may not have ended up with their faith intact. But you know Ralph, that could be remedied.
RCIA at my Church is offered also to those who have been away from the Church, or just want a refresher.
Not too late.
And you do have a valid point. |
| Ralph |
Posted - 05/09/2009 : 11:03:07 AM
quote:
[i]Originally posted by aman 2[/i]
[br]quote:
[i]Originally posted by Ralph[/i]
[br]quote:
[i]Originally posted by Patti[/i]
[br]quote:
I never intended to leave the Catholic Church but started looking for a deeper relationship with God.
Deeper than receiving Our Lord Jesus Christ in the Eucharist? Did you understand about the Real Presence? (Given the catechism from back then, it's possible you didn't.) If you did know, how could you leave Him?
Yours in Christ,
Patti
Laudare, benedicere, praedicare.
Patti of course I knew.
Ralph, at what point, when you were Catholic, did you no longer believe in the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist?
We should probably stop pretending that Catholics outside this circle are very aware of most of what the Catholic church teaches or has put much thougth into it. I honestly don't know what I knew about the Eucharist or what it meant until my desire to know God better drew me away from the Catholic Church. That is after years of Catechism.
Ralph |
| aman 2 |
Posted - 05/09/2009 : 12:48:39 AM
quote:
[i]Originally posted by Ralph[/i]
[br]quote:
[i]Originally posted by Patti[/i]
[br]quote:
I never intended to leave the Catholic Church but started looking for a deeper relationship with God.
Deeper than receiving Our Lord Jesus Christ in the Eucharist? Did you understand about the Real Presence? (Given the catechism from back then, it's possible you didn't.) If you did know, how could you leave Him?
Yours in Christ,
Patti
Laudare, benedicere, praedicare.
Patti of course I knew.
Ralph, at what point, when you were Catholic, did you no longer believe in the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist? |
| Patti |
Posted - 05/08/2009 : 2:18:24 PM
Because it is a man-made doctrine producing an edited Gospel, and is not found in, supported by and is actually contrary to the Scriptures which are claimed by its adherents to be the sole infallible source of truth. Now, I realize that you and some other Protestants do not view Scripture that way, but combine it with a traditional way to interpret the Scriptures. If that tradition were of God and not men, it would be drawing all to be one in Christ and thus be one with the Father. On the other hand, if that tradition is of men, it would produce division and splitting off from one another.
The easiest way to identify a religion's source as Divine or human is to go back and examine the historical roots of it. Every Protestant faith began with a man or a group of men. Catholicism goes back to Jesus Christ and His twelve Apostles. There were great men in the Church that helped develop her dogma, but Catholicism doesn't go back and stop at John Henry Newman, Thomas Aquinas, Augustine, Athanasius or Ignatius of Antioch; it goes back to the twelve and finds its beginning and its end in Jesus Christ.
And then there are the fruits of each faith. For every bad Catholic, there are hundreds of good ones who obey Christ and His Church. For each Nancy Pelosi, there is a Mother Teresa and an entire order of nuns helping the poor. For every bishop who says the crucifixion was about solidarity with humanity and not a sacrifice to reconcile God and man, there's a Pope Benedict XVI and dozens of bishops who continue to teach what the Church has always taught about the sacrificial death of Our Lord. For every "pro-choice" Catholic, there are those who pray in front of abortion clinics. (Want more evidence of other Catholic good fruits? Just go online and look up hospitals and see how many of them begin with "Saint".)
Adherence to Catholic teaching produces unity and good fruits. Dissidence from it produces disunity and bad fruits. Since unity was so important to Christ that He prayed for it, anything that helps it come about is good. Anything that impedes it is bad.
Personal interpretation of Scripture does not tend toward unity but produces more and more divergence in interpretation. It impedes the unity Christ desires. It is an idea that came from men and not God.
Yours in Christ,
Patti
Laudare, benedicere, praedicare. |
| Ralph |
Posted - 05/08/2009 : 1:57:10 PM
quote:
[i]Originally posted by Ralph[/i]
[br]quote:
[i]Originally posted by MonFrere[/i]
[br]quote:
Originally posted by Ralph
And I still say you don't have it. Unity is not unity when only its leaders are united. Unity is unity when Gods people are united. Clearly Catholics are not united and many issues.
But the way Protestants "do church" they take the scripture literally that says - when two or three agree ...... When they get more than that -- they form a church!! and when someone disagrees with those two or three they scour the earth until they find that third person to start another church.  -- said tongue in cheek, of course.
MonFrere
If a thing is worth doing, it is worth doing badly. G.K. Chesterton
Please, please, please stop generalizing! Tongue and cheek or not. You are quoting Mt 18:20, in context it has to do with Church discipline.
You may not be aware of this but it isn’t that simple. Churches do not just pop up overnight every time someone has a disagreement. The fact of the matter is that people usually just leave and either go to another church or no church. It appears to be the way Americans like to do church. How many churches have poped up in your area in the last 10 years that are not part of a denomination?
Ralph
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| Ralph |
Posted - 05/08/2009 : 1:48:07 PM
quote:
[i]Originally posted by Patti[/i]
[br]quote:
And I still say you don't have it.
We have one creed, one Mass, one altar, one Savior named Jesus Christ, one visible leader. Dissidents such as Nancy Pelosi do not affect that. Just because she refuses to accept all of the Church's teaching does not mean the Church is in disunity; it means one or some of her members are disobedient to Christ's words: He who does not hear you does not hear Me, and he who does not hear Me does not hear the One Who sent Me. And for every poster child of dissidence out there in the public eye, there are many obedient Catholics who quietly live their lives in accordance to God's Will by listening to His Church. The bottom line is that of all the faiths out there calling themselves Christian, the Catholic Church is unique and one. Catholic unity doesn't mean we all walk in lockstep but that we accept the Catholic idea of unity, which is found in the Catechism, sections 813-822, where the point is made that unity is something that "the Church must always pray and work to maintain, reinforce, and perfect the unity that Christ wills for her. This is why Jesus himself prayed at the hour of his Passion, and does not cease praying to his Father, for the unity of his disciples: "That they may all be one. As you, Father, are in me and I am in you, may they also be one in us, . . . so that the world may know that you have sent me."278 The desire to recover the unity of all Christians is a gift of Christ and a call of the Holy Spirit.279" [CCC, 820]
To better understand what the Church means by "unity", please read this chapter from Faith Of Our Fathers by James Cardinal Gibbons, nineteenth century Archbishop of Baltimore:
http://www.cathcorn.org/foof/2.html
Here is relevant material from the Catholic Catechism:
813 The Church is one because of her source: "the highest exemplar and source of this mystery is the unity, in the Trinity of Persons, of one God, the Father and the Son in the Holy Spirit."259 The Church is one because of her founder: for "the Word made flesh, the prince of peace, reconciled all men to God by the cross, . . . restoring the unity of all in one people and one body."260 The Church is one because of her "soul": "It is the Holy Spirit, dwelling in those who believe and pervading and ruling over the entire Church, who brings about that wonderful communion of the faithful and joins them together so intimately in Christ that he is the principle of the Church's unity."261 Unity is of the essence of the Church:
What an astonishing mystery! There is one Father of the universe, one Logos of the universe, and also one Holy Spirit, everywhere one and the same; there is also one virgin become mother, and I should like to call her "Church."262
814 From the beginning, this one Church has been marked by a great diversity which comes from both the variety of God's gifts and the diversity of those who receive them. Within the unity of the People of God, a multiplicity of peoples and cultures is gathered together. Among the Church's members, there are different gifts, offices, conditions, and ways of life. "Holding a rightful place in the communion of the Church there are also particular Churches that retain their own traditions."263 The great richness of such diversity is not opposed to the Church's unity. Yet sin and the burden of its consequences constantly threaten the gift of unity. And so the Apostle has to exhort Christians to "maintain the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace."264
815 What are these bonds of unity? Above all, charity "binds everything together in perfect harmony."265 But the unity of the pilgrim Church is also assured by visible bonds of communion:
- profession of one faith received from the Apostles;
-common celebration of divine worship, especially of the sacraments;
- apostolic succession through the sacrament of Holy Orders, maintaining the fraternal concord of God's family.266
816 "The sole Church of Christ [is that] which our Savior, after his Resurrection, entrusted to Peter's pastoral care, commissioning him and the other apostles to extend and rule it. . . . This Church, constituted and organized as a society in the present world, subsists in (subsistit in) the Catholic Church, which is governed by the successor of Peter and by the bishops in communion with him."267
The Second Vatican Council's Decree on Ecumenism explains: "For it is through Christ's Catholic Church alone, which is the universal help toward salvation, that the fullness of the means of salvation can be obtained. It was to the apostolic college alone, of which Peter is the head, that we believe that our Lord entrusted all the blessings of the New Covenant, in order to establish on earth the one Body of Christ into which all those should be fully incorporated who belong in any way to the People of God."268
quote:
I don’t know if this is supposed to prove non Catholics tolerate heresies, but you couldn’t have picked a more difficult example. Most, including Catholics have never heard of the Hypostatic Union.
It does prove it; in fact, some (not all) non-Catholics actually perpetuate the heresy of neo-Nestorianism by declaring it opposed to Protestant orthodoxy. And it doesn't matter if a dogma is difficult or not or who has heard of it or not; Catholics have only to open the Catechism, find it in the index, and read about it in sections 470 and 483. Ignorance does not excuse someone from needing to learn more about his faith and its teachings; rather, it should be an impetus to do so.
quote:
I think you missed the point. Where are we told Scripture produces unity?
Nowhere. That is precisely the point.
Yours in Christ,
Patti
Laudare, benedicere, praedicare.
So why continue to try and prove Sola Scriptura a false doctrine by the lack of unity you claim it produces?
Ralph |
| MonFrere |
Posted - 05/08/2009 : 12:46:11 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Ralph
And I still say you don't have it. Unity is not unity when only its leaders are united. Unity is unity when Gods people are united. Clearly Catholics are not united and many issues.
But the way Protestants "do church" they take the scripture literally that says - when two or three agree ...... When they get more than that -- they form a church!! and when someone disagrees with those two or three they scour the earth until they find that third person to start another church. -- said tongue in cheek, of course.
MonFrere
If a thing is worth doing, it is worth doing badly. G.K. Chesterton
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| MonFrere |
Posted - 05/08/2009 : 12:41:34 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Patti
Now, there are some Protestants who do not hold to this error. But a large number do, including Evangelicals.
You've certainly got that point correct. I was having a "conversation on CARM" with an evangelical woman and I brought up every point I could possibly think of to get her to realize that it was proper to call Mary the Mother of God. She absolutely couldn't do it. It became so painful after a while that I got the impression that she was holding her ears and chanting to herself - Mary is not the Mother of God - Mary is not the Mother of God - Mary is not the Mother of God -- for the purpose of refusing to listen to anything other than what she, as an evangelical, was allowed to believe.
I gave up CARM for Lent - and I am just as happy to continue that fast -- it's too tough on ones spirituality, at least mine.
MonFrere
If a thing is worth doing, it is worth doing badly. G.K. Chesterton
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